Forum:Wikia or Wiki
Where? I want to discuss the decision to build this wonderful project on Wikia's platform, instead of creating a full-fledged Wiki website. I've recently come across one, but it seems to be entirely deserted (see: http://www.jewdapedia.com). Would it be possible for anyone here to establish a website using MediaWiki? The standard Wiki format has many advantages over Wikia, and most people are used to it by Wikipedia editing. I can't say how easier it would be to work like a real Jewish Wikipedia! --- I.C. 19:45, December 12, 2010 (UTC) :I would say that general availability probably had more to do with it, than anything. Among other things, starting up a fully freestanding wiki requires something of a financial commitment. Whereas using wikia as a starting point hasn't.--Kirk 19:34, December 13, 2010 (UTC) :: ::Financial commitment? Why? As far as I know, the software is completely free. --- I.C. 22:50, December 13, 2010 (UTC) :::The software itself is free. But that still leaves the matter of the server, along with bandwidth.-Kirk 00:02, December 14, 2010 (UTC) ::::Hmmm. Can you estimate how much would that cost? Other than that, does anybody here have the necessary technical skills? --- I.C. 18:11, December 14, 2010 (UTC) :::::To set up an environment from scratch... a couple hundred dollars to about $600 for a PC or small server, hours to install the software and select the options, $10-30/month for connectivity (assuming relatively light traffic), and hours to maintain, or to buy professional hosting for a small server, anything from $150 to 350 per month for the power, floorspace (or rackspace), virus protection/patching, monitoring, etc. (using U.S. dollars and rates). :::::A relatively small wiki like this doesn't need an environment or even a server to itself. So, it's much cheaper to "share". Wikia is one way to do that. There are other free, wiki farms that trade-off free or cheap hosting for the right to place ads and correct revenue. One that a bunch of wikia have copied over at is ShoutWiki http://www.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page. Or there are services where we could pay for space in an environment. (I'm not sure what their rates run, but there is an article about it on Wikipedia.) There are pros and cons with any of these options, so we can continue the discussion here. :::::-- CocoaZen 13:47, December 15, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Sorry, but my understanding of the physical requirements of the internet isn't at a level that allows me to fully comprehend all the elements that you listed. I'm encouraged to know that some of these issues have free alternatives, though. Which of the sums you mentioned would become irrelevant by using something like ShoutWiki? Between "$600 for a PC or small server", "$10-30/month for connectivity", and "$150 to 350 per month for the power, floorspace (or rackspace), virus protection/patching, monitoring, etc.", is there anything that definitely does not have a free solution? --- I.C. 14:25, December 15, 2010 (UTC) Options Ok, here are some of the basic options... Set up a new technical environment As mentioned above, setting up our own wiki with servers to host it would easily cost over $500 for an unprofessional environment run out of someone's home, on a PC and over $25/month or close to $1,000 for the first year. For a professionally hosted server in a data center, it would be $1,000 to start and at least $150 a month after that for about $3,000 for the first year. I don't think anyone here wants to pay for that. Use wikia Wikia is free. You have to use their wiki skin, and they have a disturbing habit of changing the skin or look&feel radically about once a year. As noted above, the current skin is different enough from Wikipedia, or the standard WikiMedia skin. Different systems will vary, and despite the stance of wikia staff, I think this skin is much harder to use. They use advertisements to pay for the site, so you have to accept the ads, OR, they have an option where some wikia can pay about $20 a month to have no advertisements. On the positive side, they have many wiki on different topics, and it's easy to link between them and use the same ID. They are one of the largest wiki farms (wiki hosting services), so the sites attract more visitors than a "stand alone site". Being part of wikia helps get the sites rated higher on some search engines. Other wiki farms There are other wiki farms, like ShoutWiki, mentioned above. Some are free and advertise to pay for the servers, like this one. Others require the users to pay for the service. Wikipedia has a list of comparison of wiki software and a comparison of wiki farms. Different wiki farms use different wiki software, but there's no guarantee that they'll run it or use the options that we want. We'd have to move all the content. Decision This wiki has existed since 2005 and is only finally getting multiple editors and a reasonable amount of content. I'd be willing to use a different hosting location, but someone else would need to do the work of finding another location and copying over the content. -- CocoaZen 02:24, December 17, 2010 (UTC) what's your thought? :If I understand correctly, it seems that I.C.'s main complaint is that Wikia looks different to Wikipedia. Yes, it does. It's true that the different layout means that people who already edit Wikipedia will have a little difficulty working out how to edit Wikia at first. I don't see that in itself as a reason for leaving, though. :I'm not happy with some of the changes that Wikia have introduced since October 2010 (I don't think that anybody thinks that all the changes have been for the better). I do wish that Wikia had consulted users before introducing some of its changes and I wish that the staff hadn't been so dismissive of negative feedback. However, on the whole I'm quite happy with the new look. Besides which, the look will get radically changed again in about two years time and will probably go back to being more like it used to be. :I edit seven other Wikia sites beside this one. I like the fact that one username and one password logs me on to all of them at once, as well as literally thousnds of other sites in hundreds of different languages. :It seems that most of the communities that have decided to leave Wikia have either done so because of violent disagreement with Wikia staff or because they said that their wiki wasn't displaying properly in the new look. I imagine that those were very visual wikis with a lot of graphics which were specifically designed to look good in the previous skin. That's not the case for this one. :Furthermore, the wikis left behind by the communities that decided to leave Wikia are still there and are still being edited by other users. The admins of those wikis asked Wikia to delete them and Wikia refused. So, we could decide to leave, all of the content here could be copied somewhere else but it would still be at judaism.wikia.com as welland anybody could still edit it. If there were no admins around to look after it, the Judaism Wiki left behind at Wikia would soon get full up with spam, nonsense and horribly anti-semitic vandalism. :This is currently the only active English-language wiki dedicated to Judaism and Jewish culture. If somebody wants to start another one, that's fine. If that new wiki contained copies of what I wrote here, I'd be extremely flattered. All the same, I think our time could be better spent improving the wiki we've already got instead of discussing a hypothetical new one. :In short, I don't want to leave.--Simon Peter Hughes 12:57, December 17, 2010 (UTC) ::The problem with Wikia isn't only that it looks different, but that it feels different. I think we all agree that editing in Wikipedia is much easier. The most annoying example - though I still haven't figured out whether it has something to do with my settings - is the fact that I can't copy/cut-paste without using keyboard shortcuts and a special clipboard. There were a few times that I cut and then had problems pasting, which was very worrying and unpleasant. Oh, here's a new discovery - my spellchecker doesn't work here! It's also hard sometimes to deselect a body of text. Those little glitches go on and on. :: ::Affiliation with Wikia is actually something of a disadvantage, in my opinion. It makes the project look less serious and authoritative (which is probably suitable for now), and therefore, less attractive to both readers and writers. Any decision to find a new platform would mean becoming more independent -- if we can handle it, I think we can only look at it as progress. :: ::About the "remains" of this wiki - can't we just delete the content of the pages and hope that nobody would try to recover them? Even if they do, what we have at the moment is pretty preliminary stuff, and anti-Semitic vandalism doesn't worry me - it can happen anywhere. :: ::I agree though about working on what we've got. Starting a completely new wiki would be a terrible idea, and that's not what I would have liked to happen. -- I.C. 07:26, December 19, 2010 (UTC) :::Unfortunately we couldn't just delete all of the articles. Wikia would just bring them back and indefinitely block the user who deleted them. If you're never going to edit on Wikia again that wouldn't be a problem. However, as I said before, I edit seven other Wikia sites, I'm an admin on two others and I hope to become one on more sites in the future. I don't want to get blocked or lose my privileges here. :::If you're determined to start a new wiki dedicated to Judaism, please go ahead and do so. I just don't see why this one has to come to an end before a new one is created.--Simon Peter Hughes 16:17, December 19, 2010 (UTC) ::::You're being terribly defensive. I did not suggest to bring this wiki to an end, I simply suggested to move it to a more productive location. As said above, I have no interest in starting a new wiki - I think it would be a useless waste of time. For a wiki like this to achieve substantial results, quite a few people have to be committed to the idea, and it doesn't help if there's another one just like it on a different domain. More importantly, it would be very confusing for people to decide which source to go to. :::: ::::I'm sorry to hear that Wikia's terms are so unreasonable... Blocking a community of people from deleting their own material doesn't make any sense to me. If it was someone who repeatedly deleted content against everybody else's wishes, that would have been a different story, but why should Wikia intervene if nobody has a problem with it? Anyway, of course I wouldn't expect you to do something that would get you blocked. It comes down to a decision, whether it's worth it or not to leave the material here. :::: ::::I found out this morning that Jewdapedia's administrator did respond to my message after all. I'm hoping that he'll decide to join in and solve all our problems. -- I.C. 00:09, December 20, 2010 (UTC) ::::::I.C. - I don't think Simon is being defensive. It's just that he has experience starting up wiki. You are welcome to work here or on any other Judaism wiki that allows you. It looks like one of our other contributors, Kirk, has tried out the other Jewish wiki you found. I've added that wiki to our Judaism:WikiNode to facilitate cross wiki cooperation, and if it allows, create an ID there. It takes a great deal of work to create a worthwhile wiki. I want to put my energy into creating a good wiki, not discussing one. If another looks more promising, I'm willing to work on it, but until then, I'll be here. -- CocoaZen 06:06, December 20, 2010 (UTC)